A Big Downside to the Random Dungeon Tool

I’ve enjoyed the random dungeon tool.  I love the extra money/badges.  I love the lack of long wait times for groups.  There’s an occasional problem pug, but otherwise, I generally have a lot of fun on it.

Well, last night I logged in after the servers came back up.  I had been wanting to give my bear gear some love and decided I would try and run bear to get a little practice.  The servers were lagging somewhat, but I figured it wouldn’t be a big deal.  Well, there were only a few guildies on and people were already running or had to leave shortly, so I decided to do it on my own.

However, running those instances, I felt so lost.  In the first group, the mage kept grabbing aggro and I noticed, he seemed to be casting as soon as I would grab the mobs, not giving me any chance to grab aggro.  Of the two groups, he was the only one who died, but he did so 2 or 3 times.  I actually felt like I kept a hold of aggro fairly well in the first run, other than when things would go and thwack the mage.

The second group was an entirely different story.  I’d get most of the trash, but generally one or two would seem to get away from me.  The DPS was dispatching them quickly and no one died, but it was very frustrating that I seemed to not be able to get a hold of all of the mobs.

All night, I seemed to not have any problems with bosses, but trash seemed to be a major pain in my big bear backside.  Even using growl seemed to take a while before they would come back to me.

It was just frustrating.

But here was the downside I mentioned in the title.  After all of this, I had no feedback.  Running with guildies, I was used to feedback on what I did right and wrong and how to improve.

But when it was over, it was over.  There was no one to talk to tell me what problems came from I did wrong, what the puggers did wrong or what was lag problems.  These runs always seem to be so quiet, which seems fine when I am a kitty and am fairly confident in what I am doing.  But a bear feeling like he got blindsided, I felt like I learned nothing from the instance and almost like the rest of the group put up with me, just so they didn’t have to wait for another tank.

But it makes me wonder what it may be like for new 80s out there logging into these.  Dragged along for the ride, without a clue what’s going on and either getting frustrated like I was or thinking whatever they are doing is ok.  I’m lucky, since when I joined, I joined my fiancée’s guild and they’ve been very willing and helpful in helping me learn, along with my drive to not suck lead to a ton of research on my part.

I guess what I’m seeing is, while the random dungeon tool has made finding a group easier, I wonder if it has actually made learning how to play more difficult for the truly new player.  What do you think?

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16 Responses to “A Big Downside to the Random Dungeon Tool”

  1. Roguewind Says:

    What’s worse than not receiving any guidance is when I hear people just bash someone who’s doing things wrong. I was dpsing in a noob instance group and someone kept complaining about our level 40 pally tank. The guy kept stopping to regen mana. Someone says “worst tank ever!” and “man, you suck!” I tell him to chill and explain to the tank that he should use judgement of wisdom to refresh his mana rather than stopping after every other fight. Lo and behold, he listened and tanking improved.

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    • feralinstincts Says:

      I haven’t seen much problem with that. I’ve seen guildies bitch in GChat about folks in pugs, but most non-guild runs seem to be silent except for hellos and the beginning and nice run at the end. Honestly, I always worry about giving too much advice as this is my first 80 and I really don’t know the other classes all that well.

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  2. Posthumous Says:

    Just came over from BBB. I recently hit 80 on my bear after running with my rogue and holy priest for years. I’ve still got a lot to learn as a tank, but one thing that has really helped me in pugs is simply asking the dps to give me a few seconds to grab everything before they start unloading. This sounds obvious, but it’s made a world of difference in the pugs I’ve run.

    I had the same problem as you when I started pugging. As soon as I’d pull I’d have mobs all over the place and I’d start panicking. Starting a pull with everything under your control (positioning, kill target, etc) allows you to get more comfortable with your initial threat building rotation and take the appropriate response when a mob runs away from you.

    Also, the addon Tidy Plates: Threat Plates has been a huge help.

    Good luck!

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    • feralinstincts Says:

      I will definitely try that. I ended up running UK with 3 guildies + 1 pug last night and it went so much smoother than the last time I ran that instance as a tank. Granted in that scenario, I am running with people who I know will wait for me. So maybe the puggies will listen, hopefully.

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  3. Gauntlet Says:

    I think the benefits of it definitely outweigh the lack of feedback… my wife and I have started running instances using the tool, and while I can see that it definitely lacks the necessary criticism/congratulations that she needs (this is her first experience tanking level 80 stuff), I try and provide it myself.

    The benefit is that we are actually running appropriate instances again — which we haven’t done since our last guild broke apart.

    You can always ask for feedback, or try and grab somebody you know to go along as well.

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  4. Leonita Says:

    For the truly new player – It would be VERY difficult to learn how to effectively play you role in an instance using the LFG tool to get groups.

    If you look at the average group at the moment.. You are lucky if you get a response when you say “Hiya” when the group forms….

    The most intelligent conversation I get would be “Can you chain pull – I want to finish quick” or “Can we do XXXX optional boss”..

    No feedback, no chatter, no discussion, no “soul” – I think it is made particularly bad by the

    I am generally doing at least 3 pugs a day (one for each of my 80’s) and this is almost invariabley the way it works out….

    To be honest, I enjoy the social aspect of the game – so I would much prefer to run with guildies….. Even when the hunter MD’s on the healer… Just to see if you are on your toes 🙂 But then thats just part of the fun.

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  5. Deandre Says:

    If you can convince one of your guild tanks to ride shotgun with you…it’s amazing what a little mentoring about tanking in general can do.

    It seems the biggest thing we have to deal with right now is DPS jumping the gun. They’re unloading before we even have everything gathered, so one of the things I’ve done is, especially with people like the mage, is to assist them instead of the fight to get them to assist me.

    Other than that, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe like a madman anytime there’s multiple mobs. Don’t be afraid to keep moving around so you gather all of a trash pulls with swipe. I tend to swipe fairly often even on pairs of things, because you can bet one DPS is going nuts on one while the other two are unloading on a different one. The glyph of maul along with swipe will do wonders, especially if you keep switching targets to mangle. And now that we have the tank suggestions out of the way…

    Yeah, it’s a terrible environment for people to learn in. Just take a look at the WoW forums if you have the stomach for the rampant stupidity there. “Vote kick if you’re under 2k DPS, vote kick if you’re too slow…” ect. This system has been great for getting groups, but it’s brought out the absolute worst in a lot of people with the fact they don’t expect to ever see you again.

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    • feralinstincts Says:

      I actually tried a similar thing last night, tab-swipe-maul, tab-swipe-maul, etc (I need to set up BBB’s swipe-maul macro) and had relatively little problems holding threat. Granted, I had 3 guildies with me not pulling before I got aggro and the DK was great, grabbing casters I couldn’t get with the initial pull. But that run made me feel a whole lot better than I did after a couple of random pugs last week.

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  6. Kalacios Says:

    I pretty much only run instances in bear these days as it’s just a damn site quicker to get groups than in boomkin 🙂

    Doesn’t sound like you’re doing anything wrong – it’s just that everyone seems to be in a rush in heroics these days, all “go go go”.

    I’ve certainly had this exact issue quite a bit, you get a DPS who’s a bit trigger happy and doesn’t allow any time for you to get aggro, which isn’t usually too much of a problem and I can growl it back before they get hit, but when you get DPS all on different targets doing this (even though I’ve marked a primary – and usually a secondary – target) then it becomes a real pain to get them all back.

    I agree though, most of the time if that is happening alot then I do ask the DPS to give me a second or two to get a little bit of aggro, and for them to get on the main target, and usually there are no problems.

    If I’m running an instance (at whatever level) I always try to give some advice if any member of the group is doing something they shouldn’t be (or vise versa), rather than have a go at them as some others might do. And unless they take offence to being given advice (I’ve had some that have), most are quite appreciative 😀

    Nice blog by the way, liking it so far 🙂

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  7. Rahl Says:

    Im a kitty by nature but i also bear, esp as its easier to find groups.

    I generally try to tank in my Kitty gear but using bear talents if its an easy heroic. This helps with the threat and damage output. The only things i change are the wep and trinkets.

    If its one of the new heroics then i get out the full dedicated bear gear.

    If DPS are pulling agro time and time again i do a /sit and wait for them to die, its their job not to get aggro not yours to keep pulling the mobs off them. Politely tell them that and hope they get the message!

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  8. @valkyrierisen Says:

    See if you can bring at least one friend/guildy with you on those pugs. They can give you the in depth feedback you crave. 🙂 Me and my wow buddy do that. The rest of the pug can be dead silent and boring, but we entertain ourselves (and often bring some laughs to the pugs, maybe)

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  9. amertune Says:

    I just started tanking on my 70 druid. I seem to have a horrible time holding aggro on multiple targets. It seemed like every DPS was trying to pull aggro on a different mob, and every time I caught up with one mob and re-established aggro a different one would peel away to go attack a different DPS. I wish I could run with groups that used their CC, watched their aggro, interrupted casters, and focused fire on the skull.

    IMO, the worst thing I’ve come out of the new LFG is how low-commitment the PUGs are. You’re only interested in the drops from Falric? Kill him and drop group. The healer dies when all of the mobs in HoR rush into the corner where he’s hiding? Blame him for allowing a wipe and kick him. I’d love to see more people giving some patient advice, and less people clicking the vote kick button or dropping group.

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  10. Sar Says:

    As for holding agro, as a bear, macro Maul into your Mangle, Swipe and Lacerate. Enrage before you pull, charge in, Mangle, tab, swipe, tab, swipe, tab, swipe, tab, mangle, tab, swipe. Don’t forget that Feral Faerie Fire also produces threat without consuming rage, use it when its off cool down. Make sure the mobs are in front of you as much as possible, but depending on the pull ( the 5 packs in H POS before the cave), I end up pretty much doing pirouette’s around the center caster so that the back end of my swipe (I think of it as a big bear roundhouse kick), will be tagging the casters. Over all, once I glyphed Maul, and macro’d it into almost every ability I have, I stopped having threat problems, now I just have occasional rage problems when the DPS are too efficient.

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  11. Razor Says:

    Why LFG tool and random dungeons are bad: You find people in item level +245 gear running item level 187-226 instances, they don’t want to be there, just get the 2 frost emblems and be gone.

    Good thing about random dungeons: Last night I got a fresh warrior tank with 23k hp. It was really challenging to keep him alive, myself and the rest of the group alive (I always run as resto to get my 2 emblems fast 🙂

    I don’t know much about prot warriors but tried to give him some advice, use thunderclap on multiple mobs etc. Our standard can’t-handle-threat mage died twice – but other than that – we managed and it was really fun!

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  12. Ron Says:

    I learned to tank almost exclusively through the LFD tool actually. I got myself defense capped on my DK and just started up. Its been rocky. It actually seems that the less geared you are, the better. When I had only 25k health the DPS were usually roughly as geared as me or slighly more. They’d wait for me to gain aggro and the healer would keep a closer eye on me.

    Now that I have 35-37k health DPS go nuts whenever and its harder for me to keep the mobs hitting me. But I guess thats what makes it fun. I still tank, mainly cause of the long wait times as DPS. Though I’ll admit, if I’ve had a long day at work, the last thing I want to do is deal with leet DPS trying to hurry me to the next pull.

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    • feralinstincts Says:

      Actually, I was having an interesting conversation with my guild leader last night, that that may be the best way to learn how to tank. If you can tank and hold aggro when all the DPS is being that dumb, you certainly are ready to handle things in a guild raid. The more I’ve thought about that, the more I’m beginning to agree with it. I might have to do some chain running and evaluation to see what my tanking mettle is worth.

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